055 - Kirsten Beverley-Waters: Getting Curious About the Boxes We’re In
Welcome back to season two of Threshold Moments. Today I’m joined by author, Yoga Medicine teacher, multi-sport athletic coach, and World Record Holder, Kirsten Beverley-Waters.
Our conversation spans topics from gender to athleticism to endurance to social justice. And at it’s core, I think it’s about the ways that small steps make a big difference over time — both in finding our innermost selves and in straying farther from who we truly are.
Kirsten also shares their process of claiming themselves as non-binary and what that did for them as they went into a 100-mile race.
Tune in to learn how a run of any distance or decision of any size can radically change your life when paired with a deeper intention. I hope you’ll listen and enjoy.
Connect with Sarah
Connect with Kirsten
Episode Transcript
Sarah Tacy [00:00:05]
Hello welcome, I'm Sarah Tacy and this is Threshold Moments, the podcast where guests and I share stories about the process of updating into truer versions of ourselves. The path is unknown and the pull feels real. Together we share our grief, laughter, love and life saving tools. Join us. Hello, welcome to Threshold Moments.
Sarah Tacy [00:00:39]
Today you'll be listening to a conversation with Kirsten Beverly Waters. This conversation is going to sound slightly different because after I interviewed them, I still had burning questions and I asked them if they would be willing to come back on the podcast. And so we did a follow up and All in all we had almost two hours of recording and therefore we had to consolidate. So I hope you enjoy. You will hear that it is slightly different and if I were to give a tiny little piece or overview of the conversation would be that it is worth our while to look at why we are who we are and how we identify.
Sarah Tacy [00:01:32]
It is worth our while to look at the things that we have assumed to be true and just question it. There's a part where Kirsten just says I'm in a box. What is this box? Do I want to be in this box? So before you can say like, I got to get out of here, it's just noticing and getting curious.
Sarah Tacy [00:01:59]
And they take us back to thresholds in their childhood and things that have helped them develop into who they are, ask the questions that they ask, and even tap into the idea of why and how struggle can be such a powerful teacher in our lives. At the very end, like one of the last things that they say, they talk about when you pull an arrow back, it's what helps propel you forward. So today, I hope you enjoy as much as I did and do enjoy listening to Kirsten Beverly Waters as they share their expertise on life, athletics, working through hard things and questioning how we became and become who we are and who we're wanting to become. Thank you so much. Welcome to Threshold Moments.
Sarah Tacy [00:03:08]
Today we have with us Kirsten Beverly Waters and I'm going to start with the official bio Kirsten Beverly Waters is the author of Struggle Guru, a yoga medicine teacher, a multi sport athletic coach and a world record holder, No Big deal for the most consecutive ultra runs. As an LGBTQIA Plus yoga teacher, they offer students a safe space to explore, express and experience their queer bodies in practice. Through their experiences with cancer, mental health and grief, Kirsten helps others transform moments that grab hold of them the hardest and transform them into personal growth practices. Kirsten has created mental health and mindfulness training programs for athletes and continues their work one-on-one with cancer and chronic pain patients when they are not teaching or coaching. Kirsten speaks on the human condition and how our biographies transform our biology.
Sarah Tacy [00:04:24]
Welcome. Thanks for being here.
Sarah Tacy [00:04:28]
Yeah, I sometimes start a podcast off by saying how we met or how we know each other. And in this case we don't know each other very well, hardly at all. What I do know is that over the last year or a year and a half since starting the podcast, whenever I go through your Instagram page or it shows up on my feed, I am often just moved by what I sense to be a great deal of love and vibrancy and care and depth and discipline and precision. And So what I do is when I see someone who I think this person could be really amazing to share their story, I take a little screenshot on my phone and I think I now have a. Few screenshots of your Instagram.
Sarah Tacy [00:05:32]
Page on my phone and finally I was like, hey, would you be willing to come on? And so I appreciate you coming on and I look forward to getting to know you.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:05:42]
Well, I think it's funny that in this day and age, like being able to go on social media and we do, we connect with so many different people that we feel like we know and then we like, we play it back and we're like, actually, no, I never actually met you in person, but I feel like we could have because I feel like you shared something very vulnerable or personal that connects me to you in some capacities.
Sarah Tacy [00:06:06]
And so a line that I highlighted, there were many of them, but that I highlighted at the end here is our biographies transform our biology. And I think this is more what the podcast is about that our biography is often when we really face them, help to transform the path we go on and what we choose to share with the world. And I'm wondering if there is any part of your biography maybe starting like further back on the timeline and then we'll move closer to present day and time that has had a significant impact on making you who you are today?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:06:53]
I think a lot of times I've pointed to losing my father at six years old is it was very traumatic. Is the 4th of July? I remember watching fireworks off of our roof, falling asleep watching Jaws, which is kind of hilarious being like 6 years old watching Jaws, right? Like, nothing like a soothing movie on the 4th of July to go to this. Go to sleep too.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:07:17]
Come on children, gather round as the great white eats the boat. I would crush my children's sleep like for years. Yeah, right. Well, and my, my dad, we, we spent a lot of time in the water and my dad often pretended to be Jaws like, like try and pull you underwater. So I mean, there's lots of things there, nothing abnormal in that.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:07:40]
But I remember falling asleep to that next to my father. And the next thing I remember was waking up to my mom screaming and panicking and trying to perform CPR on my father and watching my aunts come to gather us like she came as the paramedics came and watching them take them away. And then him never coming back. And that being such a space of disbelief because my father, for sure, as a child was someone I idolized. He was incredibly athletic. He would get up every morning and he'd go for a run. He'd play tennis. He loved basketball. I mean, there wasn't a sport or an activity that he didn't love. And he also had a great love for my mom.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:08:18]
And he was a hopeless romantic. And so there was just so much there that in losing him, I think I lost myself. And not in the sense of, like, trying to hide myself, but trying to conform to be what I always imagined he would want me to be. And so it took me down a path of, OK, my father was a runner. I should be a runner. And that's what I'm going to do. But maybe I don't like running. I don't know. But I know that he would be proud because he was a runner or he was really good at math and science. So I would be really good at math and science.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:08:57]
Spoiler alert, I was terrible. And now I was actually quite, quite good at English and multimedia production and video production and theater. So I was like such a different, but I held on to that path in a lot of ways unconsciously throughout my life. And it took a lot of unlearning that part of me. That path for me that I think is most significant was his.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:09:28]
His death was significant, but it was the loss of exploration of myself that happened that day that was most traumatic, not the loss of my father because he lived a wonderful and brilliant life. And though it being cut short and I know for sure he wouldn't want me to cut my own life short. And that's what I was doing in that moment. So that's why it feels most impactful going back if I had to pick a moment.
Sarah Tacy [00:09:57]
You also mentioned right before you gave that story and I don't want to Passover it because I hear how obviously big that is. I gather that you do a lot of self exploration. And before we got on for the call, there was a moment where we were testing out mics and you said, oh, it's interesting because generally people hear me before they see me. And you didn't mean generally people hear me on a podcast before they see me on a video. I believe you meant like they would if we were in the same area, they would hear me before they would see my body.
Sarah Tacy [00:10:38]
And that was talking to your ability to project and that when you were younger, there was a time where you lost your voice. And I wanted to go back and visit that because I imagine like in many people's own ways, and sometimes it's more symbolic than a something that can be pinpoint, we have times where we lose our voice and the path back to finding our truth or finding our voice or being able to stand up for something or say something loudly or take up space can be quite a journey or it can seem impossible. And so I was interested in hearing your story about your voice.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:11:21]
Yeah. So when I was three years old, I had an abscessed lymph gland. So I was playing with the neighbor and he came running in to tell my mom that I had swallowed a grape. And then it was stuck on the side of my neck. And my mom said, well, that's weird because I didn't give you grapes for snacks. So I'm not really sure how that is. And my mom's like, yeah, that definitely does not look right. It did look like I had a great just. And it came out of nowhere. So my mom took me into the emergency room because she was concerned about it.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:11:51]
And they told her that I had an abscessed lymph gland and that they needed to do surgery immediately because if it were to rupture, like getting in the lymph nodes and like, and that can make me very sick. During that surgery, the surgeon nicked my vocal cords because they got so close into it. So this scratch to the vocal cords, it impaired my speech and made things very difficult. I struggled a lot with various words. So I had to work with a speech pathologist, went to speech therapy.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:12:23]
And I mean, as a kid, it's already hard. You're learning new words, but also learning like there's certain words that you knew going into a room, like before my surgery and then coming out of that surgery, I couldn't say or I'd struggle or be very painful to say. I feel that took a long time and in a lot of ways has been, as you had pointed out, like we talked about losing our voice. And metaphorically, I don't think that there's anything scarier in our lives than feeling unseen or unheard, right? Like to feel invisible, doesn't matter how in our lives, and to not be able to say something, to not be able to speak up, to not be able to articulate something that you want feels paralyzing.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:13:07]
And as I progressed through my life, it has served as a metaphor in different ways, whether it's coming out in the queer community, coming out as non binary, that I have platforms while small but still impactful as a yoga teacher, as a public speaker, as a coach where I can use my voice. And when I don't, I'm not honoring the three-year old to sat in all of those sessions and work so hard to be able to speak and articulate in a way that people could hear and connect with. Taking that time as a kid, struggling to be able to talk, struggling to be able to have the words. And now to be able to be an adult and have that be one of my strengths is something I'm proud of and I don't take for granted because living in the United States, we do technically have free speech. And I don't feel like we use it enough because we're so afraid of what others will think.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:14:06]
And I often think, like, can my voice, can what I have to say help one person in a way that I needed when I was younger? And if the answer is yes, then I want to take the step forward, as scary as it can be, especially when we live in a world where it's like you're so afraid to say the wrong thing or be cancelled. And that's where I'm like, this is where grace and compassion come into to it. We all have space to grow and learn. But I'm grateful in a lot of ways that I had that experience because now it's helped me use my voice with such clarity. Wow. I mean, I'm obviously fascinated. I like humans.
Sarah Tacy [00:14:43]
Yeah, I love to hear how something that happened when you were young that was so that sounds so challenging, was preparing you in many ways to be who you are meant to be. I would. And it's really amazing to be able to see the other side. And I think on this podcast, I never want to promise like the other side, but it has been actually really hopeful to me over and over, especially the last few podcasts when I'm listening to people's journeys. And sometimes it's like 20 years of the unknown and sometimes it's seven years of really hard times. And the message keeps coming out to keep going, to keep taking that next step, actually. What is your motto? He only pace this forward. Yeah, that seems to be the message.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:15:30]
He only pace this forward.
Sarah Tacy [00:15:32]
And we can pause, like we can still take a pause, but the only pace is forward. You wrote a book called Struggle Guru and you run ultra marathons. And I don't know if these two are connected, but I'm wondering if you could share with the audience anything either that you take from the struggle or why that would be what the book is centered on and how what role it plays in your life.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:16:02]
I had this concept of struggle guru, but I remember having a conversation with my wife where it was like, what is it that I'm really good at? And I'm like, people love to come to me with their struggles. I'm like, sometimes I feel like the only thing that people want to talk to me about is like struggles. And when things get better, then it's well, bye, I'll be back when there's another struggle. So it was kind of tongue in cheek of like, I feel like people think I'm a struggle guru.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:16:24]
And at the same time, it made me dig a little deeper into the fact that I believe our greatest mentor, our teacher, and yes, guru, which is a word I do not use lightly because I have great reverence for its history and its significance. So I want to be clear that I am no one's guru. Ever do I see myself as anyone's guru? But I do believe, because struggle has a powerful and profound impact in our lives, that it can be your guru if you show up to it and see it as your ally instead of your adversary. And that's where Struggle Guru really starts, is taking a look at our struggle, understanding that it's not there to oppose us, but to encourage us, but to ask us hard questions that maybe we don't know how to ask or we're afraid to be honest with.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:17:23]
And through that understanding of struggle, we can start to unravel our own stories and change our biography So in turn, we can also change our biology. You know, we I have athletes who are the same age and will say, one will say, like, I'm so old and I'm not capable of doing this and I can't do this and I can't do this. And I watch them manifest that. And I'm at that same age athlete on the other side who was like, I feel so powerful and I'm strong and like, age is just a number. And I watch them cry.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:17:55]
And so each story is influencing that. And both of them are looking at struggle as different teachers. One sees them as the one that is the force that's pushing against them, which is OK. Anybody who's ever lifted a heavyweight in their life knows that we need resistance in order to grow. But some people carry that so heavily that they let it crush them. So that's where Struggle Guru takes people on a journey of self inquiry to what is your biography and how is struggle playing a role and how can you change that to live a better life, to live more authentically as yourself.
Sarah Tacy [00:18:44]
We all have fight or flight outlets that are needed on a daily basis. And I wonder with people who do long distance if there's a certain amount of that fight or flight that gets out. That is actually really like regulating to get to neutral for the pain that one might feel for a significant loss in their life or a significant trauma in life. Do you have any thoughts on either what you've seen or what you felt in yourself?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:19:14]
Yes, so many thoughts, distilling them down to something useful or at least coherent. I mean, and I've had conversations with so many runners who've come to running because of either addiction, trauma, or just a great deal of stress in their life that they're not sure how to alleviate. They've tried different methods to help in that. And some of that may be meditation, yoga, weightlifting, alcohol, binge watching, sugar, any number of things, right? But there's something about running, I think, I think the reason running resonates with so many communities of people who are struggling is that it is full body.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:19:59]
You can't just be like, well, I'm not going to think about my arms or my breath because they're necessary where I could be on a stationary bike, right? And it's mostly legs and I can sit up and not use my arms and like drink whatever I want. And I could also watch on a screen something on a stationary bike. Running requires all of our senses. And so I'm going to shift a little to speak to my me personally through traumas, through anxiety, through mental health, through illness, through loss.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:20:29]
Running provides me a space to feel very grounded and real about what real pain and discomfort can feel like in the moment, but also remembering that I can choose to walk so I can go from run to walk. I will breathe heavy, but I'll also have moments of flow and everything feels free and wonderful. I'll have great moments of clarity and also kind of be like the squirrel that's sitting off in the tree, like just bouncing every direction. And so each time I go out there, there's just a different piece of me that I experienced. And by being out there and experiencing those different parts, I feel like I am better able to apply that in my day-to-day life.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:21:07]
So I think that's part of the draw for people in it. And people talk about the endorphins and how you feel, which is kind of funny because my mother, I distinctly remember her saying after a high school race, what is fun about running? Before you run, you look like you're going to throw up. During the race, you do throw up. After the race, you still look like you're going to throw up again. Where is the fun in that? And I think that the fun is in running. It is a very set goal. I start here, I end there. And so also people getting into running where life feels very chaotic.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:21:44]
There's a start and there's an end point. It gives us a sense of control around something where we can start to flex how much discomfort and pain we want to feel and how far we want to stretch it, which is why people start to stretch the distance. They're like, OK, I can endure more. And each time I add another layer or mile, I feel like I can endure more in my life. And that's why you're starting to see more people do marathons and ultra marathons is because it creates that layering of enduring, which is what we need to do in our lives.
Sarah Tacy [00:22:18]
Do you find that there is a translation? I'm wondering, I, we talked earlier about how in yoga there's a translation often, especially at the beginning. But when you get deeper into a pose, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to continue to get in deeper into layers of yourself and that you could actually get more into ego. And I'm, you know, you could speak for yourself. But again, I know you coach a lot of people. Does it still make it over into day-to-day life that like, oh, I can endure a longer distance and therefore I can endure more when I'm not running?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:22:58]
I think that it depends on how willing any individual is to look inward because I used to think that I had to keep going further and further to understand how to endure. I always set an intention for my run. What is it that I am looking for in the run? And I don't think that everybody does that. A lot of times the intention is I want to get faster, I want APRI, want to beat this record that's in this area.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:23:26]
I want to win a race. And what starts out for a lot of people is very introspective work to grow and heal, starts to funnel some people down the path of like now I feel seen, People recognize that I'm doing this now people recognize that I'm getting this accomplishment. And it's that's where the ego starts to take over in the running portion of I need more medals, I need better accolades. You know, doing one 100 mile races isn't enough. I need to do 5. I need to do 200 mile races. I need to run across the country to prove, to prove to whom and for what. And that is always the question like that I'm asking myself.
Sarah Tacy [00:24:04]
My one of my earliest yoga teachers used to yell, are you doing this out of love? Are you doing this to prove something to somebody? And it was so great because I was a college athlete and I was in classes often with people much older than me. And I'm like, oh, I don't want to be the first person out of down dog. I don't want to be the first person out of Warrior 2.
Sarah Tacy [00:24:24]
And so with that question, now there are going to be days where I can really lean into the idea of tapas and letting it burn and that my mind is stronger than my body. And so there are days where I'm like, oh, I can push this edge because out of love, I'm curious, what else is there? There are other days before a teacher asked me, like said, oh, if you want to come out or hear, there are other days that if it's out of love, you know, I'm, I'm doing something else. I'm choosing another. So that one question so often has helped me and getting in real time, getting to practice.
Sarah Tacy [00:24:54]
Am I doing this out of love or am I doing this to prove something thing? When I listen to your 14 minute live that you did after your 100 mile marathon, it sounded like there was so much self liberation in it. You were speaking about how you were finally doing this race for yourself and as I was listening I was thinking I could never do what they do. I could never run that race and I still might not choose to run 100 mile race. But, there were, I was like right there, right there. I could, I can I can link on to that similarity, yeah.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:25:35]
Well, I mean, first of all, yes, you could do 100 miles. You were right in saying you might not choose to, right? But you could. There was an article that was written this summer that said the 200 miles, the new 100. So it's the 300 mile, the new 200.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:25:56]
And I am careful sometimes in sharing my stories of distances that I choose to seek out for my own reasons, sometimes athletic, sometimes just deeply personal and cleansing and spiritual. In fact, most of them at this point in my life are about challenging a view of myself and being able to show up and see what happens in that moment. Because I will get floods of letters or messages from people who say, Oh my God, I've never done anything over a 5K. Like now I need to do 100 mile like to be able to like have this like self liberation. And I'm like, no, no, no, like, please understand the distance does not matter.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:26:44]
The intention around any activity or event that you create for yourself is powerful. This is specific to me. And that by acquiring more miles, you don't earn a certain level of enlightenment. That's not how it works. Because I feel like there's so there's so much out there that says like more is better, faster, more, faster, more, more, more, more more like hustle, grind, puzzle grind.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:27:09]
And then we lose this capacity to find ourselves. And that's what movement for me at this at this junction of my life is really about. Movement is about connecting to my deepest self. And the 100 miles was the most powerful run that I have done for many reasons. Because the first thing is I was the first time I felt like I was toeing a line of a race of this magnitude where I was uncertain whether I could finish as myself.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:27:42]
And to have my mom, who has never seen me complete any ultra distance as an adult. She, I mean, don't get me wrong, she never missed a cross country or track meet when I was in in high school, but she has not seen this. And she had initially said like, Oh yeah, I'll show up at one spot, which mind you, she lives within like 15 miles of any part of the course. So she could show up at any time. She got so hooked after the first part seeing me, which the first time she saw me, I had just slid down a huge mud hill that was full of horse manure. I could not smell worse, which was part of the reason I'm like, get this off of me. Like I can't run another 80 miles in horse manure. Like I need to change. And so I was changing. She just couldn't believe it.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:28:30]
And she stayed up all night. She was sending me text messages through the night and then was at the finish line. And that was such a powerful moment to have her there, to see what I've done as an adult, and not from the athletic feet, but just the resilience and the fortitude and the persistence to keep showing up. And that's what that race felt like. I kept showing up in the struggle.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:28:52]
While there was a monsoon, and I do mean monsoon, they had to reroute part of the course because the river was too high, more than 8 hours, a non-stop torrential downpour, which is why I was changing the clothes so much because I was getting such terrible chafing in my like bra line and it hurt. And I just remember looking at this woman like, I see you have small children. I'm so sorry, but they're about to see all kinds of things. And the lady was like, don't worry, they just saw their dad pull their pants down. I don't think anything will be more scarred, you know?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:29:26]
So I was just like switching, switching through those clothes and not being able to get any fluid or food down. Starting at mile 20, miles 50 to 70, it's projectile vomiting and the only thing going through my mind, Yeah, the first time I could eat anything was at mile 87 and it was 1/4 of a grilled cheese sandwich, which is crazy because I am lactose intolerant and I cannot eat gluten. So the fact that I can eat is gluten, dairy object. And like, I was like, Reborn was kind of amazing in there.
Sarah Tacy [00:30:04]
Could you not eat because you were running so hard that you just couldn't take it down? Or was there no source of food? Like nobody to bring you food?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:30:15]
No, there was plenty of food. I mean like so much food to access my body was rejecting it. Like my body just wasn't having it. Which honest. Happened to me in the 1st 10 days of my world record attempt as well.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:30:29]
I couldn't get food down. So the good thing was that I was familiar with what that would feel like and how to navigate it. I want to also remind people, please seek medical attention in these times. Don't push in these be safe people. But my wife is a physician and she is my like lead crew person out there.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:30:50]
So you know, and I had two nurses who are also in my pacy crew. So there, there are people there medically who can help me and there are medics there as well. But yeah, so the food wasn't able to go to my body, just it wasn't having it. So I was, I mean, by the time I finished the race, I had lost. I was out there for 28 hours and I had lost close to 16 lbs.
Sarah Tacy [00:31:16]
What? Yeah. Yeah, that's how much. Clearly I don't. I don't follow this world because I didn't know that was humanly possible. I've never heard of that.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:31:30]
That's a lot. That's a lot. It is. I mean, and that's what happens when you can't take anything in and I mean that is truly border like is dangerous. It was dangerous. And my wife and I, when we finished, like taking care of the fluids, taking care of me from like a medical standpoint to ensure that I could get things into my body, because that could become very dangerous, like even more dangerous than it sounds.
Sarah Tacy [00:31:56]
Yeah.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:31:56]
Please don't try and go like I, I did have somebody send me a message when I shared that and they're like, Oh my gosh, that's amazing. So if I run longer, I could lose more weight and I'm like, this is not the message. That is not the message, not the message. Do not do that like.
Sarah Tacy [00:32:11]
So one thing that comes to mind a few minutes ago you were speaking about more miles doesn't make more self liberation. And it made me think about again when I was more deeply embedded into the yoga world at the beginning. I feel like ever so much is self awakening and then getting deeper and deeper into poses can sometimes really feed the ego. And I'm not saying that it makes it worse, but it so as you were saying, it's the intention throughout it all. And at some point during my practice, I just started really scaling back.
Sarah Tacy [00:32:53]
Like our imbalances are great. All the things are great. And so I'm not turning anything against any. But I thought, ah, if I just did really like a simple lunge and I could actually just be with my breath home in the lunge. And when I twist open, if I could really feel emotionally, breath wise, presence wise.
Sarah Tacy [00:33:14]
And everything just started simplifying more and more and more so that it was more about my intention. And I think along the way I realized that there is no end game. There is no end point. I know that some people believe that, you know, there are enlightened folks on the in this on this planet, but from mostly from what I've seen, most people actually still have their human and therefore grace, empathy, breathing, presence, intention. And as you said, coming back again and again and again.
Sarah Tacy [00:33:59]
But it was a little bit of a relief and permission for me. When you reminded me that it's not the distance, it's the intention. For some reason, I was just like, what a relief because that's really doable. Like any listener could do that any point during any day.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:34:20]
I want to liberate people in understanding that it isn't these huge things that we have to do to be healthier, to be happier, to love yourself. Doesn't have to be fitting into a smaller pair of pants. But if that is what you want and you desire for your own reasons, there is nothing wrong with that. And there's constantly people and programs and social structures that are trying to convince you to fit into a specific box. And I asked people to examine what box are you in?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:34:55]
Did is it of your own choosing and do you want it to unfold a bit and find something new? Because a lot of us just stay in the box because it's easier than it is to take the first step out because we think we have to jump out-of-the-box, find a new box and do the next thing. We're literally the, the first step could be just recognizing you're in a box, just the awareness and once you're aware of it, like the first step can be, I want to change that. That's another step. Well, what does that change look like? Like building on all those pieces so that we can all feel seen and loved and respected in our own journeys and that it doesn't require 100 mile race or the perfect handstand or nailing crow for 5 minutes. OK.
Sarah Tacy [00:35:59]
Peter Levine, who is, you know, the person who started somatic experiencing and I understand that there have been thousands of years of wise people utilizing the body to help release trauma. But he'll often say that we need challenge and to overcome challenges on a somewhat consistent basis in order for us to recognize who we are, recognize our edges, but also to feel confident and powerful and as if we could make choices. And that trauma often comes from coming into situations in which the challenge overcame us and then we weren't able to get back up from it. And so as you're mentioning, like crow and a handstand, and I could be like, yeah, who cares about those? Then it's also like, and they're like the times where when you do something new that you never thought you could do that there are there are those elements of like, wow, I can do so much more than I thought.
Sarah Tacy [00:37:05]
And as I think you were saying, the challenges don't have to start with crow and they don't have to start with 100 mile race. They can start small. You said just noticing you're in the box, which reminded me of the idea of the reticular activating system, which would just say it is so powerful just to ask the question that our consciousness will be able to begin to see new answers if we just ask the question, I'm in a box. What could my life look like if some of these walls came down? What are the walls?
Sarah Tacy [00:37:42]
What do I want? And just in asking that we begin to see new, new possibilities. And I, I appreciate that because I was actually unsure of like, I wonder what the next step is. Do you jump out-of-the-box? Do you? And I love that. It's just like, I'm in a box. I'm not sure I want to be in this box anymore. Just the curiosity. And you said it was the first time that you weren't running with an external tow rope, that you are running for yourself.
Sarah Tacy [00:38:15]
And I'm wondering if you could describe what an external tow rope is and why it could be useful sometimes, and the transition to running for yourself as yourself.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:38:27]
Backing up just a little bit to what you were just saying and like the challenges, I think it's hard to imagine herself moving forward wanting anything for herself when we haven't even asked how we got to who we are today and how we came to these thoughts of our being, of our habits, of our presence. And so we're often influenced by our parents, our teachers, our coaches, our mentors, our newspapers, our media, our books, the world around us is shaping us everyday. And that is the tow rope, right? Like it's, it is towing us in a direction and that is helpful because we aren't sure who we are and what we want. And it's, it's nice to have some guide in some capacity because you don't want to just like come into this world and be like, well, best of luck.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:39:21]
Like pick a direction. And so there are many people with great intention for our best interests that can help move us in that direction. And that's, you know, in, in running, there were a lot of people, including my father and my mother, my coaches, my teachers, my friends who were pulling me in that direction and telling me that I'm good at this and I'm strong and I'm capable and I'm a leader here. And so that feels really good. It, it feels empowering.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:39:51]
But there does come a point where I had to ask myself, did I hook the rope to myself or was it placed there for me? And if I didn't hook it, I can unhook it. If I did hook it, why did I hook it? There's a lot of questions there, right? And that was, there's 100 miles to ponder on it.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:40:14]
Every mile peeling back a layer, so many hours. And I, I stepped away from running for a while because I really believe the only reason I was running was because of my father and because everyone who loved my father said I looked exactly like him, which is a little terrifying right now because if we look at haircuts like he in high school and I now kind of have similar haircuts, it's a little full too much for me. But so I felt like a lot of my running was always stemming from that place. And so it never felt truly like my space. So when I stepped away, I said, if I'm stepping back into this ever, I want to step into it as something that I am choosing.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:40:57]
And it took me a while to get back there. I I'd, I'd start up again, I'd be like, yeah, it's for me. Because I felt like I was peeling back this layer and it was for someone else. And it was while I was spending several years writing a program for yoga medicine on sex, gender and identity and yoga that I was grappling with my own identity and couldn't articulate it. And was reaching out to scholars and theologians and anthropologists and teachers from all over the world, asking them questions, learning about cultures and learning about humans, that I was able to articulate what I've been feeling in my body.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:41:41]
And coming out as non binary freed me of that box and also brought a new breath and cadence to my run. And so when I was out there in that 100 miles, I felt like every iteration of Kirsten who struggled to understand who was in the mirror, who is looking back and didn't feel quite right, fought so that I could run that race. And every mile felt like a celebration of not giving up and not giving in to these different pieces and unhooking that rope and freeing myself to spread my wings and trust that fly or flop. It is. It is of my own doing.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:42:30]
And it felt empowering in every step. No matter how uncomfortable my feet felt from the endless amounts of rain or the vomiting or the fatigue, I just felt so in myself that none of that mattered. And it is powerful to know that when we can speak to who we truly are and how we're truly feeling in a moment that some of the biggest challenges or struggles feel like you're just your greatest wind beneath the wings. You know, very bet Midler of me. I know.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:43:06]
But you know, it's just it felt so right. And I have slipped in different ways as I've moved over the last year feeling now I'm in Ohio and there's more restrictions and laws that make me feel very uncomfortable. And I, as part of what I've been sharing in the posts that are currently on my social media, is about my own journey to reclaim that same feeling I had in the 100, which was only just this past summer, of committing to the freedom of being me and knowing that that is enough. Whether the world says it is or not, whether people understand or not, I have to follow this path for myself and forge this path for myself because that is the greatest act of self love that I can practice on a daily basis. And so sometimes it shows up and running, sometimes it shows up playing with the puppy or coaching an athlete or teaching a student or writing.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:44:18]
It is everywhere. And the more that I feel that, the more that I feel connected to so much more than I ever imagined or bargained for.
Sarah Tacy [00:44:33]
So beautiful. It sounds like as you uncovered the layers and came into your truest self and into your an identity that finally said yes. It sounds like there was a weight lifted off that maybe couldn't be named before that when you said gave you wings. I almost imagined, even though you said you were throwing up, that there was like the lightness or this energy that was moving through you, that was new, that was amplified, that was freed, that had possibly been like held down and back before. And just when I saw the video post race, yeah, there was just so much love streaming through you.
Sarah Tacy [00:45:24]
And I also hear that now you're having an experience where you're being asked on a daily basis to have that reclamation. And so there's like a congratulations. And I'm sorry, I know that we have, we will all have that of who am I and having boundaries and then having and feeling so good that you set the boundary and then having it violated and then having to like reset the boundary. And I know that, you know, someone in a cisgender body is not going to have to like reclaim that I'm a female and that that's OK and that that's enough. Congratulations on being able to keep reclaiming. And we're running a race that was fully for you as you.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:46:15]
Appreciate that it's been a long time when I listen to people are you when it comes to like we're in trans rights and you know people talk about agendas that are politicizing and I want people to feel loved as they are. I can have differences in fact, some of the athletes I coach began with Adm from them sending me threatening messages saying how an abomination or this and I always ask the question I would love to learn more about you. Tell me more where you like where'd you grow up? Where are you from? Where are you sending me this from?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:46:57]
Because I don't think that pushing away the difficult conversation is moving anything forward and you saying that you you'll never have to reclaim your cisgender female body isn't true because you can in the choices you make of liberation of how you use your body, how you how you express what is femininity. We have such binary structures in society, and we think that haircuts and colors and clothing make a gender. Like it wasn't that long ago that men were wearing dresses as babies. Like Franklin Roosevelt wore a dress like that's not that long ago, You know, men and boys wore pink because it was close to blood and the essence of warriorship. But we've shifted it because there's so much that's happening in culture that we just let shift by.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:48:00]
And when people come to me in any class, I want to feel like as a teacher that I am seeing them as they are ready to be seen and respecting that space and knowing too that there are parts and people who are not ready for parts of them to be seen and maybe hiding it. And that is also OK. And that is their journey. And by providing safeness and support, I hope they find their own wings. It doesn't matter who you are.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:48:35]
You don't have to identify as queer or trans to be able to find that liberation. I think each of us, parts of us that are being held back, and they are, they are held there by deep beliefs and conditioning that we've never questioned how we came to the realization that I am this and this is what I do. Who told you that? Was that a good feeling? And if I say it to you now, do you still feel good? Like those are questions to continue to ask and are going to help all of us grow as humans.
Sarah Tacy [00:49:13]
Of course, that makes a lot of sense and I know that and I'm in that journey and in that process. And I appreciate the reminder that the hard conversations are necessary and moving forward. You spoke about putting together a program for yoga medicine that I believe was on sex, gender and identity that you spent a number of years studying with anthropologists and scientists and teachers. And as you're diving deeper, like into this, also knowing that we've talked a few times on this podcast about just saying, oh, I'm in a box. Do I want to be in this box?
Sarah Tacy [00:49:55]
Where did this box come from? And then, and I feel like this was part of the journey that you went on. And then would you be willing to share some of that?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:50:04]
Yeah, absolutely. So your podcast is a great example of this. You have so many different micro courses, micro introspections for people to learn from and do self inquiry on. And I love podcasts like this one where it makes you think and makes you ask questions about yourself. Because what I learned as I was studying and asking questions to philosophers, theologians, scholars, you know, people all over the world about sex, gender and identity was how much I had just accepted as who I was without wondering my own back story.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:50:47]
Like really digging into it, not just the facts of like, I was born On this date, this is my family, this is the neighborhood I grew up in. But what were the, like, meaningful cornerstones of my life that helped me as a human to understand my humanity? And so sex, gender and identity, the course and the questions that I was asking, we're digging into, like, how does societies build? How do culture shift? Inquiring into sex, gender, and identity required that I also look at all of the ways in which I have been influenced into my understanding of my own humanity.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:51:32]
So like from a neurological standpoint, our brains like to categorize things. We need to be able to label and identify something partly for that fight or flight. Like is this a threat? Is this safe? And so when we can't articulate, we can't categorize or label it, we get very confused or we get very scared or we are very aggressive.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:51:54]
And so being able to label something or name something can be both empowering and also incredibly paralyzing. And so while I was unpacking all these pieces around sex, gender and identity, I opened the box of understanding being non binary. And then no sooner did I do that did I fall into a trapdoor of will nobody listen to anything I have to say about the woman's experience any longer? You see what I'm saying?
Sarah Tacy [00:52:26]
Yes, like.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:52:28]
I freed myself of something that felt like it was Yeah, that was caging me for my entire life, only to lose a platform that quite honestly, I have spoken on for a good majority of my adult life is women in sport. You know, women like empowerment, empowerment through movement, speaking on the female athlete triad, all of these things. Can I talk about them anymore? Because now there is a space and society where somebody might say you no longer get to speak on that because if you're going to choose this word to identify yourself, now I no longer associate with this word that has this power. And I'm like, oh, great, what do I talk about?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:53:11]
And where do I, where do I go from here? I can't speak to the male experience. I can speak about, you know, men because there's different sex and gender, male being the sex, men being gender. So I definitely can't speak to the male experience because of a lot of different biological aspects, hormonal aspects and just identification from a gender standpoint. I can speak to women and my being raised as a woman, but now I'm again, I'm back in a new box.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:53:41]
I like stepped out of one. I'm like, oh, there's fresh air. I'm in the freedom and they're like Anne Cage. So going through these studies and talking to different types of teachers, you know, for example, in some Native American cultures, they use the term 2 spirited, which is not to be used by anybody outside of that culture. And I say that because I have watched some individuals who identify as non binary use that term and that is not OK.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:54:08]
Like if you are not a part of that because it is not the same thing. It is sacred and it's spiritual. But these are individuals who are revered for their ability to speak from kind of like all aspects of it. But in the society that I am standing in right here, people don't Revere me for having multiple understandings of masculinity and femininity. But it did make me ask, is that label important?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:54:36]
And once again, the only reason it's important is so somebody can categorize me by articulating that I was non binary. It wasn't the word that freed me as a person. It was the understanding of my wholeness. So I don't need the word to feel whole. If somebody asked me like, you know, do you identify as man or woman or you're like, so you're saying neither or both or all. I'm like, I identify as Kirsten. Like I am Kirsten. And being able to say non binary because there's a word. Let me feel better in my skin. That's it.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:55:20]
Like just let me live my life every single day. It didn't change my relationships with my friends or my family or how I doing basically anything. I'm still me. I have always been me. But this word unlocked a piece that was hidden under there that I couldn't see.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:55:39]
And it's funny because so many people are like, why do you have to be stuck on the pronouns? Why does it matter that you have this word? But we could go to the same church, the same cooking class, the same running group, have the kids in the same school, and then they find out I'm not binary. And that's the one thing that I'm cut off because of. Like, I'm not the one who's making it the thing.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:56:04]
Does that make sense? Right. I'm just trying to show up as myself. And I can't do that when I'm trying to conform to something that isn't me. And it's not about wearing dresses or not wearing dresses because somebody could do a search on me and be like, well, you used to have long hair.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:56:23]
Did you? And I've had this conversation. Did you cut your hair? Because like, no, I didn't cut my hair because of my sexual orientation or because of my gender identity. I cut my hair because I wanted my hair to be short And I, I felt good in it. Like, why do you cut your hair? Why do you wear your hair out? Same thing. Like, it's not, not everything is a political statement. Not everything needs to fit into that box of things.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:56:46]
And the same thing with do you wear a dress or you don't wear a dress. I know plenty of cisgender heterosexual women who feel absolutely super feminine in a suit and heels and full makeup. But I also know women who feel absolutely like super masculine wearing the exact same thing that is personal to people. And when we start to unpack then why we're so stuck on what clothes someone wears, what hair they, how they identify as, whether or not you're worthy of humanity, it answers a lot bigger Shin. And that was what I was digging into in my researches.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:57:27]
You know, why is it that Eastern religions that tend to have more than one God and you have lots of stories around transformation of figures, that they transform from masculine to feminine, You know, even as you read in yoga philosophies like the transition of these things is not unheard of, right? But when we go into Westernized religions, Abrahamic religions, we become very focused on male and female. It's interesting that in some countries in the Middle East people would think it would be terrible to be trans. It's more accepted to be trans in some of these Middle Eastern countries than it is in the US. Not saying that it's accepted, but what I am saying is that in those cultures they believe, well if you're trans then you could still marry someone of the quote opposite sex, right?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:58:31]
Like this. So they'd rather you transition into this space. And but here, if we if we can't categorize you male or female, then that's definitely no like it. Isn't it enough that we let gay people get married? Why?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:58:42]
Why do you want to branch over into these like spaces? There's just a lot more nuanced pieces to humanity than am IA man or am IA woman. There's also close to 62 countries to this day who still have more than two genders. And long before colonization, there were there was far more countries and territories where gender was not binary. And so when people talk about like I'm trying to push an agenda right now, it's like we just don't talk about the history because it's easier to erase it.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [00:59:19]
We don't talk about trans medicine that was occurring in Germany because a lot of it was destroyed by Nazis in World War 2. Or the fact that militaries have used trans people or non binary individuals to cross dress as a form of spying to gather information because they could utilize some of the androgynous look that some people in this identifying category present as to their advantage. So we're using it for military purposes as well. There's so many ways that it's like we want to discredit it. And that's why while I was researching all these pieces, I was like, my mind was kind of blown because there are a lot of things that I didn't know. Because it's easier just not to talk about it. It's easier to erase it or eliminate it than to have a conversation.
Sarah Tacy [01:00:15]
It reminds me of how someone could stay in a unhealthy situation because they know they can survive it, then learning a new way because there's going to be discomfort and fumbling in the finding of a new way and they don't yet know. Like when we go into something new, can I survive this new thing? Even if it means that it opens up love, it opens up acceptance, it opens up. It's like I get to survive and thrive with these privileges and now someone's asking me to open my perspective. I, I don't think most of that is conscious, but I feel like on an unconscious level there might be like, why can't we just keep things the way they are for those that get to benefit from the privilege?
Sarah Tacy [01:01:02]
And if there's any ask like, well, what if we could learn? What if we could learn history and learn that there could be more and many and we can actually just like we can be our human selves in the variety of ways it presents instead of that being exciting. I can imagine for that there are many systems that it just feels, I don't know if I would survive that I can survive either anything from this hell or this heaven, whatever it is. But to change what I'm doing, current form I understand with other patterns and pattern breaking that the body sees it as a threat.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:01:38]
I think you hit the nail on the head with a very specific word there, privilege. If I look at what I feared when I came, like when I was like, OK, non binary, like aha, this is it. And then immediately fell into the trap door of like, now I'm not going to be able to speak to like women's issues, women this, women that. What I was actually pushing up against is there was still a greater privilege being a woman then there was to be non binary. And I did not want to release the privileges I had being a woman.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:02:15]
And that's a lot to say because certainly women have a lot of doors that are closed, but that's what I was holding on to. Like I've worked so hard in my life in sport, in yoga, to have a voice as a woman. And now I'm saying, I'm not that Now I have to start here again. Like, do I want to do that? Maybe I just don't talk about the non binary thing as much and I can still use that.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:02:40]
And it's that non attachment like, which is such a hard thing to rectify as a yoga teacher, as a as a yoga student, as someone who is a great reverence for many different Eastern religions that talk about like separating ourselves. That really my energy, my consciousness, my spirit, whatever you want to call it is contained within this vessel. And the less I attach to this vessel, the more I tap into my power, tap into the divine. And so by adding this layer of non binary, am I not attaching a little bit more to this human form than is necessary? Or am I unlayering being able to actually articulate something so that I can release it?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:03:28]
And at first having that thought and that discovery, it absolutely was an attachment. I clung to it so deeply, like, thank you. I found it like tattoo it on my body. This is me, this is who I am. And then I was like, actually, now that I've said it, I can breathe, I feel free, I can release this.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:03:47]
I can go back to I am the special. I am all of this and I'm none of this. And that's part of what I find beautiful in being able to connect to those words. I think that when you can name something right, like naming your fear releases part of its power. Same thing happens like when you can name an identity, you can release pieces of it so it doesn't have such a hold on you.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:04:13]
And I did an entire training on like identities and Wellness just as in general where it's like which identity showed up. I encourage anybody listening like sit down one day and see how many identities that you can come up with like your professional, your personal, your interpersonal, your spiritual, just name all of them and then ask how much time in that full day that you were awake did you commit to each of those identities. And if you don't like where you're at in your life, you might want to address first how much energy is being spent in each of those identities. If I don't like that I spent most of my day being the housekeeper at my house, like I might need to ask for help or find ways around that so that professional Kirsten can rise to the surface a little bit more and get just a touch more out of it.
Sarah Tacy [01:05:02]
The thing that you just put out to the listeners, possibly as a take away or as an exercise, would be to look at the variety of identities. And I actually loved when you gave the housekeeper one because it helped me to see just how many identities I might have. And I might not have picked up on that. Like now I can name so many more just by you naming that one right there. Beginning to notice, beginning to choose where we want to put more of our energy. And then also just asking about the box we're in with the idea of the reticular activating system. Being able to just say like, oh, that's so interesting. I think I'm in a box. What is my box? Do I have choices in this box?
Sarah Tacy [01:05:45]
How was it formed? So for me, it's just more of the curiosity. And I love that the first step was curiosity and learning where the box came from before we even jump out of it. And so another thing for the listener is just taking some time possibly to journal or sit with or let it Stew over the rest of the lifetime. Just, asking the question about the boxes we're in, how we got there, do we want to stay, do we want to leave? And I'm just thinking everything was quite multi dimensional and nuanced. Part of maybe what I'm connecting is this idea that we are possibly all in the process of continuing to find who we are. But then also the added step that you just named is finding words that can help people on the outside to understand what you're feeling on the inside.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:06:36]
I think that if I want anyone to understand anything is I'm still working so much on being able to articulate these pieces because it I've spent a lifetime suppressing them. And so if you hear tumbling’s in my words or explanations, it's not because I don't feel it or know it, but to put it into terms that feel relatable to others is still not necessarily there for me. And it's something I continue to work on and feel every single day. So I'm always grateful for opportunities like this to share those pieces. Some more of it rise to the surface and we can have more conversations.
Sarah Tacy [01:07:15]
Thank you so much. And I'm wondering if there is any programs that you're wanting to have people know about or anywhere that they could find you?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:07:26]
In terms of where to find me, you can find me online at katywaters.com. Obviously Struggle Guru is out there and I'm currently working on a program of our great unlearning which will come out this spring. So people will have the opportunity to do some Zoom sessions and connect with other people who are trying to unlearn various lessons of their life so that we can move forward, advancing the conversations of what makes us great and powerful exactly as we are, and find new ways to challenge each other. So that's what's in the works.
Sarah Tacy [01:08:06]
And they can find that program on your website.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:08:09]
Yes. So that will be, you'll see information for in the next week or two, it should be out. So end of February, you'll see information on there.
Sarah Tacy [01:08:18]
Is that the same or different than the AIIR?
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:08:24]
Arrow. Arrow, yes, yes. So 80 Waters has a link to arrow, and arrow is spelled that way because it is actually Japanese and means indigo and indigo, and yoga is intuition. So I also have an arrow tattooed on the inside of my arm that I got after overcoming cancer as a reminder that any time it felt like life was pulling me back, it's only because it was trying to launch me forward. And that's what we do with an arrow. We draw it back to propel it forward. Arrow Wells is my business and where I do a lot of retreats. So either one of them will link to each other. They'll both.
Sarah Tacy [01:08:59]
Spots, thank you so much. Thank you for your time and it's been nice getting to know you just a bit and you know, hopefully over time I'll get to know you even more.
Kirsten Beverley-Waters [01:09:10]
Absolutely.
Thank you again for having me.
Sarah Tacy [01:09:17]
Thank you for tuning in. It's been such a pleasure. If you're looking for added support, I'm offering a program that's totally free called 21 Days of Untapped Support. It's pretty awesome. It's very easy, it's very helpful. You can find it at sarahtacy.com. And if you love this episode, please subscribe. And like, apparently it's wildly useful. So we could just explore what happens when you Scroll down to the bottom subscribe rate, maybe say a thing or two. If you're not feeling it, don't do it. It's totally fine. I look forward to gathering with you again. Thank you so much.