084 - Kareem Manuel: From Familiar to Optimal
Welcome back to Threshold Moments. Today I’m sharing an inspiring conversation with father of two and founder of We Society, Kareem Manuel.
Kareem is the host of the We. Are the Ones Podcast in which he talks to thought leaders, influencers, political leaders, and culture makers to find out what sparked them to bring people together around a common goal or agenda.
Together we talk about the many thresholds of change that Kareem has purposefully initiated in his life and how he came to the philosophy that we are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We also unpack how Kareem’s upbringing in purity culture was something he needed to overcome in order to become a conscious father.
Tune in to hear us explore:
The out-of-body experience that catalyzed Kareem’s desire for self-change
Why it’s important to honor the clarity of “not this”
What it looked and felt like for Kareem to change the pattern from familiar to optimal
Kareem’s “Courage Jacket” and how it transformed his relationship with anxiety
How parenting more consciously has been a spiritual awakening for Kareem and his children
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Episode Transcript
Sarah Tacy [00:00:05]
Hello welcome, I'm Sarah Tacy and this is Threshold Moments, the podcast where guests and I share stories about the process of updating into truer versions of ourselves. The path is unknown and the pull feels real. Together we share our grief, laughter, love and life saving tools. Join us. Hello, welcome to Threshold Moments.
Sarah Tacy [00:00:40]
Today we have with us Kareem Manuel. This conversation really inspired me. It reminds me a bit of Andrea Isabel Lucas when somebody has a moment in time where they realize that they can be the authors of their life as also Doctor Don Saint John said and Andrea's view, it would say, oh, nobody's coming to save me. I'm going to own it all. And as Kareem says with his brand, with we society, we are the ones we've been waiting for.
Sarah Tacy [00:01:23]
And in this moment of change to change everything from the food he eats, the movements he makes, the way he parents, the people he surrounds himself with, the oh, I wish I had asked him more actually on how his money story has changed and the role it plays in his life. That's a teaser that doesn't have an answer on this one. I actually left and I was like, oh, I have more questions. And the work that he's doing with men's group and music. So inspiring.
Sarah Tacy [00:02:01]
And lastly, I'll say listen in for the story about the Courage Code and when it's over, I challenge you, I invite you to try on the Courage Code at some point and see what might you do if you felt courageous. What might you do if you had a loving person cheering you on in your corner? What would they say to you? How would you respond? Enjoy this episode, it was so inspiring to me.
Sarah Tacy [00:02:39]
And of course, please check out Kareem and all the places that he shows up, especially on social at Chief dot Kareem. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to Threshold Moments. Today we have with us Kareem Manuel. And I just told them that I'm, you know, drawing this bio together from what I picked up online.
Sarah Tacy [00:03:15]
And then I will really have this next, you know, 45 minutes or so to hear more directly from him about life and who he is and what he's here for. Kareem is a father of two. He is the founder of We Society, which you can find at wesociety.co. That motto or their motto is we are the ones we've been waiting for. He is the host of We Are the Ones podcast in which he talks to thought leaders, influencers, political leaders and cultural makers to find out what sparked them to jump, take the leap of faith, make matters into their own hands, to galvanized and organized people around a common goal or agenda.
[00:04:01] The podcast talks about day-to-day struggles and how people overcome them like issues of self doubt, self worth, entrepreneurial living and being an alchemist of change within an existing infrastructure. Welcome.
Kareem Manuel [00:04:17]
Thank you so much, that was really beautiful.
Sarah Tacy [00:04:19]
They were your words from your podcast intro I was.
Kareem Manuel [00:04:22]
Like I really, I really resonate with you. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this.
Sarah Tacy [00:04:28]
Yeah. So I became aware of you through Sarah Jenks and her husband Jonathan, and started following you on Instagram. And it's not unusual that I may have people in my life that I know for a while and I'm not sure. I don't ask the one to come on the podcast until there's this like little poll that kind of hooks me about bit. And you had you had one post where you showed yourself changing overtime.
Sarah Tacy [00:05:04]
And many of us change overtime. And sometimes it's obvious from the outside and sometimes it's not. And this podcast is called threshold moments. And if I could just describe a threshold moment the way I see it, and then ask you perhaps what that threshold was for you. So this is possibly, so we're on a similar page.
Sarah Tacy [00:05:27]
Or is that the listeners might think of a threshold? I think of my teacher's chart called the cycle of awareness. And at the beginning we have the normal state, the state that we're used to. And then at some point something interrupts that flow. And it could be having children, it could be just that how we are.
Sarah Tacy [00:05:49]
It starts to feel like friction in our bodies. It could be a diagnosis, an accident, it could be imperceptible. But something just doesn't jive. And the next stage often tends to be chaos and confusion. Like I'm trying to use all the tools I have, I'm doing everything I know how to do, but things are different.
Sarah Tacy [00:06:09]
So it doesn't work. Then there's a fertile void where you, it's often, you know, if you believe in God, then it would be like I, it doesn't have to be that either. It's just kind of like, I don't know, I've tried everything, it doesn't work. And in that fertile void, we might come out, who knows, months, years later and have some inspiration and then insight and then integration and then an evolved state of norm and the cycle continues. So that's like, even though you're like evolved state of norm, it's not the end.
Sarah Tacy [00:06:42]
It's never the end. We just keep cycling. And I'm wondering for us if there is a point that you could share that felt like one of these thresholds where what once worked was clearly no longer going to work for you?
Kareem Manuel [00:07:01]
Absolutely, man. What I'm appreciating about this time of reflection is I don't like to spend so much time in the past, like pining for the past or even like rehearsing traumas or but I do think it's something special about looking back to give thanks and to be aware of the growth of the patterns. And so when I'm looking back, for me, it's 2017. I've been married for 10 years. I was an evangelical pastor, devout as devout could be, learning Hebrew so I could know the Old Testament better, learning Greek so I can speak the New Testament better.
Kareem Manuel [00:07:48]
I got married at 21. I had my first child at 23, my second at 25, and so my 20s. I'm building a family. I'm starting organizations and businesses that are to what I believe is like the glory of God. And I do not care about money at all.
Kareem Manuel [00:08:10]
I'm just about reaching the people, loving the people. And I had a friend who was going to the church that I was pastoring, who was an accountant who asked me to help do my taxes one year. And I really just wanted to spend more time with him. I didn't care about the taxes at all. But and he's, he's going through my taxes and he's like, how are you living on this much money?
Kareem Manuel [00:08:30]
And you know, because it was not a lot at all. And being poor was so regular and common to me. I was, I was fine, but it was definitely a struggle. And I remember moving to Atlanta, I had the opportunity to completely change my work and living situation and my family situation and go from making, you know, 35,000 a year to over six figures doing the same work. But then moving away put a lot of stress on all my relations.
Kareem Manuel [00:09:05]
And then Donald Trump came down to escalate and said he was running for president. And what that triggered was this series of events where people was just really mean to each other. Oh, man, just mean as afraid, angry. And, you know, I experienced this lifetime as a black man. And so just like all of the energy that came from there and the feelings of like, am I going to be safe?
Kareem Manuel [00:09:37]
There's historically haven't been safe. You know, I'm at a place where at least there's not violence every day. What the rhetoric, the way it sounds, and not just from this person who's run for president, but from step, from everybody on down, just the US versus you, you versus US, whatever that even means. And just the anger. And I just remember, and I was £250.
Kareem Manuel [00:10:02]
I was on 7 medications every day. I've been going to the doctor for five years trying to get better. And so when you say, you know, part of the cycle where he's just like, this isn't working. I just remember being in my basement of my house one day. I'm 30 years old and I'm screaming to the air like somebody needs to come do something about this.
Kareem Manuel [00:10:25]
It's so much going wrong and not just the stuff that's affecting me. There's kids enslaved right now digging for cobalt and diamonds and the schools in my neighborhoods and neighborhoods I grew up went historically are always terrible and not capable to teach our children. People can't even eat dinner at Thanksgiving anymore because of what's happening in politics. Like we're so angry about a title that we can't even like be family. I was just lost and angry and just said somebody needs to come and fix this.
Kareem Manuel [00:10:57]
And then it was like a jolt in my spirit to myself, to myself, absolutely. That's why you're here. And from that moment, it was just clear. It's like, oh, it's on me, It's on us. We're the ones that we're waiting for. There's nobody else coming and that needs to come. So that let me on a whole long thing. I'll let you ask some more questions. But that was 2017. January 3rd, 2017 was just out of body experience in my body.
Kareem Manuel [00:11:33]
Enough is enough and I don't even know what comes next, but I know I'm done with this. I'm done with the fear. I'm done with not saying what I really feel. I'm done with going along to get along. I'm done with looking for something outside of me to rescue me. Yeah, that was it.
Sarah Tacy [00:11:52]
Yeah, wanting to feel into this moment, a little bit of this jolt coming through you. There have been a few times in my life where I feel like I actually hear the word of God. Yeah. And it's often not quite what I like, not quite what I wanted to hear. Like the direction is like oh that's not, that's not the answer I wanted.
Kareem Manuel [00:12:17]
At all ****.
Sarah Tacy [00:12:19]
But this, yeah, what I'm hearing is like a light bulb moment where when you do hear that word, when you do feel what I'm hearing in your body, you feel that that there is no going back. Like there is this once you know, you know, and there's no going back. And I'm thinking about it's, it's often quite interesting, the sequence of the people that I interview that Andrea Isabel Lucas was right before this. And her moment was in a hospital and realizing, Oh, no one's coming to save me and going, oh.
Kareem Manuel [00:12:51]
There and there's an acceptance, there's a surrender that I think someone has to have for it to mean anything. I had someone come in our store and they saw we are the ones we're waiting for. And she clutched her heart and said, I don't want to be the one I'm waiting for. And I think that happens a lot. Like there's a choice, consciously or unconsciously, of like, no, it's not me, it can't be me, but it is.
Kareem Manuel [00:13:18]
And so, yeah, I remember asking my doctor to his face after five years taking 5 pills and two sprays every day and four surgeries, being diabetic and high blood pressure and high cholesterol and sleep apnea and chronic fatigue, chronic bronchitis. Just saying, Doc, when am I going to be healed? And he looked at me like I was speaking Chinese. And so I he said, I said, when will I be healed? When will I be done with this?
Kareem Manuel [00:13:47]
You just keep giving me more drugs and now you're recommending more surgeries and he's like, well, this runs in your family as I do not. I do not accept that my genetics are just weak. I do not accept that this planet is out to get me, that the planet that I was born on I'm is making me sick. No, I belong here. I'm doing something wrong. I'm not following the path that's for me. It was so clear and I don't know what that path is, but I'm off of this one. I know which one it is not. It is not what I was doing. And I'm going to go and be a student and learn and Oh my God, I'm so grateful. I am so grateful that I did.
Sarah Tacy [00:14:29]
I brought this up in the last conversation, so I'm not sure if it's worth saying it again, but it's maybe I'm saying it for myself is a phrase I learned from Boyd Vardy, who is a Lion tracker and I would say a shaman and a coach. And it's the idea of the path of not here. And so when you knew, I don't know what it is, but it's not this what great information that is.
Kareem Manuel [00:15:03]
The data is right there.
Sarah Tacy [00:15:05]
Yeah, I know. Even before you know the next right step, knowing that this is not it and having that clarity is so huge because the way I hear the situation that you are in is, no, we're going to give you this medication forever so that you can stay, just stay the course, not get better. This isn't here to heal you. This is just here to keep you on this cycle.
Kareem Manuel [00:15:34]
It brought up so many questions for me. You know, how many of these situations are in my life already, but varying degrees and levels of how I'm living in my life. What foods am I eating that make me feel bad that I just do because it's this holiday or this birthday or this special occasion of this programming? What thoughts am I accepting? Because that's just part of the program.
Kareem Manuel [00:15:59]
I'm just getting older, so my body's breaking down inflation. And so money is tied to, like, whatever the truth that I'm accepting. How much of it is just ******** how much it is just wrong for me? And why am I so afraid to try something new? This is how I had to speak to myself.
Kareem Manuel [00:16:21]
I know I don't like what's going on the way I eat now. I laughed at myself back then. I laughed at people who ate like, you know, just vegetables and fruits. And I mean, I thought it was the craziest thing in the world. And then I remember laughing to myself about the idea and then saying if I cannot imagine my own self eating better, who will?
Kareem Manuel [00:16:46]
If I can't imagine it for myself, who is going to? Nobody else is going to see it better. That makes a difference for me. I have to grab a hold to this vision and just trust. And it was and is the absolute most frightening thing to say yes.
Kareem Manuel [00:17:08]
And you don't even know because that's why I, I said yes to myself. Yes, yes, I will go. I said yes to God. It was like, absolutely, I'm coming and I'll figure it out on the way. And it's really beautiful how the higher self, how the voice of God works is that you just keep drawing. You like the way is revealed on the way.
Sarah Tacy [00:17:31]
Yes, yes, somebody came on Janine Yoder and said when you're following the bread crumbs, you're not throwing your own bread crumbs in front of you, which is how our society would have us think, what's your five year plan? What's your 10 year plan? How are you going to get there? And that would have us throwing the bread crumbs and then saying I'm following the bread crumbs versus like actually just like foraging. OK, got it. OK, not here.
Kareem Manuel [00:17:59]
Not here. I love that.
Sarah Tacy [00:18:02]
Yeah, me too. That's why I meant to bring it up again.
Kareem Manuel [00:18:05]
OK, not here, but that's such good information. But it's just like, OK.
Sarah Tacy [00:18:10]
The path of not here yeah. And I wonder if you could say a thing or two about that changing of patterns from familiar to optimal, like what I have a vision of what that looks like to ourselves on a cellular level. And I'm wondering if you could share what it felt like and what it looked like.
Kareem Manuel [00:18:33]
So I'm in the middle of it again now, as you said, the cycles, you know, beat. So seven years in and I feel it happening so clearly again now. But I'm so much better prepared because I've seen it before, even though I still don't know what's next. At the time, it was both exhilarating. There were times where I would pretend to put on a courage jacket and just have a jacket of courage.
Kareem Manuel [00:18:59]
And I would say to myself, if I was courageous right now, what would I say? What would I do in the middle of a conversation? I would be saying to myself, if I wasn't afraid of how they will respond, I wasn't afraid of losing this connection or embarrassing myself. What would I say? What's the truth?
Kareem Manuel [00:19:18]
And it's it, it jostled with how much untruth I was sharing and withholding and living. I would, yeah, I would just pretend to be a, a brave man. I would say to myself, if I had a good father right now, what would he say to me? And then what I imagined my father saying to me, I would I would try to do anything that I was afraid of that caused anxiety in me that I could step into. I was going to step through the anxiety.
Kareem Manuel [00:19:48]
So I went side diving, I went scuba diving. I went, I fed lions. And just that process of meeting the fear face to face and saying, I see you. I feel you still. And I'm still going to do this. By the third activity, I wasn't afraid anymore. Now I was. I learned that that anxiety really was excitement. I wanted this to go well. I wanted to enjoy this, and I have been twisting it so much out of fear that it was feeling like anxiety.
Kareem Manuel [00:20:17]
I remember being five days into eating differently. I decided I was going to run a mile every day, no matter how long it took, and I started eating fruit for breakfast and lunch and some type of salad or something for dinner. I didn't tell anybody. And five days in, I took a deep breath for the first time in years. I mean, I felt my lungs just pop open.
Kareem Manuel [00:20:39]
I was taking a regular breath, but it just said. And I looked around to see if anybody else saw it or heard it, and I knew it was for me. And I had tears in my eyes. And I just said, oh, this is for me. I'm not AI don't need to convince anybody else.
Kareem Manuel [00:20:57]
This is how they need to eat. I don't need to fight them with anybody else about like I'm feeling my mind and my body heal itself. It's the most intoxicating, powerful feeling to feel the energy coursing through your blood, especially as I say to my children a lot like I was dying. I know I was dying. I, I because I feel so alive now.
Kareem Manuel [00:21:21]
I can look back and say, oh, I really felt bad. I felt terrible. And to feel my sails, it felt like they were drinking, like it was just like just drinking water and air and oxygen. And the more I felt good, the more I wanted to feel good. And so it became easier and easier to make the choices that were speeding this fire of like love and adventure. And so, yeah, now I'm seven years in, I couldn't. I can't imagine. I can't imagine living another way. I hope that answers your question.
Sarah Tacy [00:21:55]
That was awesome. That was so great. I love the courage best. You know, there's that saying, if I knew I couldn't fail, what would I do? There's something like that.
Sarah Tacy [00:22:07]
I used to have that written on a piece of paper and then I would kind of just let it get lost and it would show up like over maybe it was a seven-year. Like it would show up when I was moving or it would show and at some point I lost. It lasted. And I want to say I prefer yours. I really love the if I was a brave man, if I am courageous in this moment, if I had a good father, what would he say to me right now?
Sarah Tacy [00:22:36]
Like these are, you know, Tony Robbins often says our life is decided by the quality of our questions and what powerful questions to ask yourself in the moment. I used to train athletes and one of the biggest things was to get feedback in the moment. And that was how we would change our patterns, not hearing it later. So you were getting yourself in the moment of change and being this phenomenal coach to yourself. And I'll just say the other thing that I like about we society, when it says like we're the ones that we're waiting for sometimes. If you have taken your whole life where you are your own caretaker as a child and you didn't have someone really take care, be like me again, like. I've been having my own back forever and like this, this overinflated independence where we think that is where our value comes from. And I'm also liking. So in your story, there is an element of something beyond you and something within you. And then I'm asking from your brand that there's also an element of community. If it's like, not I am the one, I'm the only one.
Sarah Tacy [00:23:43]
It's like we are the ones we've been waiting for. And so there is this like really beautiful tying. I see a triad of like self, something beyond self that's divine and guiding and community. It's just like a really beautiful thing. And I want to say as I say that I'm like, and you really pointed out that when you change your eating, you didn't share it with anybody.
Sarah Tacy [00:24:09]
And for me, like some people do that to help get coached along. And I can really see how powerful that is to do it just for yourself without like, I don't need to hear anybody else's opinions.
Kareem Manuel [00:24:21]
On this, you know, man, I love everything you just shared. I know I wasted so much time. I, I, there was no wasting, but I spent a lot of time trying to build consensus about my life and it just didn't work. Especially when the people that I'm around and connected with are in the same predicaments that I met. I heard myself telling me to shush Kareem.
Kareem Manuel [00:24:52]
If you knew how to be healthy, you would be being healthy. You don't know. You need to listen. Then it's like, we'll listen to who and to what? Because the people I've been hanging out with, we're all in similar spaces.
Kareem Manuel [00:25:06]
It's like, so listen to that. And so and to me, that's encapsulated in the not here. OK, This isn't it. That's something that crossed off the list. I'm wiser now. And so, yeah, just listening. And then in Rasta culture, we say I and I. So when I say we, it's all the eyes. It's healthy, loving individuals that make a we. And for me, the we is not possible without the I.
Kareem Manuel [00:25:35]
And so when I pray for we, I'm praying for me. And the way I contribute the absolute best that I have is by being the best that I have and sharing that. And so like we like the tenants of we is like we have everything we need in the we, all the information that needs to be gathered and gleaned and understood about how to live is here all the resource, everything that we need. And so I love that you are picking up on that. It is completely communal.
Kareem Manuel [00:26:06]
It is not hyper individualism, it's healthy individualism. It's communal interdependence. If I'm going to be dependable, it's like I know that because I can depend on myself, I can set a boundary and keep it. You know, I'm disciplined. I'm disciplined in how I eat.
Kareem Manuel [00:26:24]
I'm disciplined with my schedule. I'm disciplined. So if I tell you I'm going to do something or I intend to do something with you, like the chances of it coming to fruition are very high. And so it's easier to depend on me. It's not about being perfect, even though I like to say I think that we are perfect.
Kareem Manuel [00:26:42]
I think we're perfect just as we are. I think that whatever is going on in our lives is perfect for what we need to become US. And so when I hear people say like, oh, you know, nobody's perfect. And I go, no, everyone's perfect. It's perfect. And that is a practice for me. And so even though I might not execute at the level that I want to every single day, I am moving towards that. Those bread crumbs continue to gather. And when it's not here. And sometimes it was here and now it's not.
Sarah Tacy [00:27:18]
Yes.
Kareem Manuel [00:27:20]
I'm too, I'm too big for this space now or I don't need as much space now. Like our as we're growing and evolving and morphing, sometimes the path changes and to stay into to stay walking, to realize, oh, this path has served its purpose and I let it go in love. And now I'm on to something else. I just think, at least for me, that's what I'm here for in life. I'm here. I'm here to honor the eye and eye the oneness of all, and the individual expressions of that oneness.
Sarah Tacy [00:27:53]
When you began to make these changes in your life, how did it affect your parenting?
Kareem Manuel [00:28:01]
I was raised in purity culture, so sex was something that everybody thought about, but it was shamed. The only information we got from older people were about the negatives that could come from it. You can get with the pregnancy. I don't want to disease in your life would be over. I remember some young girls who were teens in my church.
Kareem Manuel [00:28:25]
Anytime one of them got pregnant, they would have to stand on stage and like, apologize to the congregation. And it's hurtful because that's hurtful. But we also know that these people loved us and that's what they thought was the best. I got whoopings and spankings. And there were times I definitely felt misunderstood.
Kareem Manuel [00:28:43]
My parents would look at my face and think I was making the face. And I'm like, this is just my face. I, I'm not even thinking about what, what I don't even know what you're thinking. I'm thinking, but I was thinking about video games or something else. So all that to say, when I had children, I was very dogmatic. I was very afraid. You're a black man. I'll tell you, you're black boys. You're a black man In America. These are the rules, the lessons.
Kareem Manuel [00:29:13]
These are the things you need to know. I'll spank them every now and then, but nothing like what I had to experience and what I had experienced from other friends and people that I grew up with after slavery, physical violence to teach people how to behave was a very common practice. And so when I woke up, the first thing I did is like, I'm not yelling at them, I'm not spanking them. And the amount of people that said I was insane, I mean, all over the place that we're going to eat like this. We were eating this way and everybody was sick.
Kareem Manuel [00:29:49]
We're going to eat this way now because I love you. I'm going to make it fun. We started, I started farming and growing our own food. And I just would like to report like the relationship we have now is the absolute. It's a dream.
Kareem Manuel [00:30:06]
It's a dream because they know I love them and not just in a word, but indeed they're free to share what they think. They disagree with me. They have their own voices, They make their own choices up to a point where I'm like, hey, this is how we have to do this. And I'm your father. You got to trust me on this one.
Kareem Manuel [00:30:25]
And it's like it, it's, it's there. There's nothing on the table that can't be discussed and hasn't been discussed with love. We laugh from our bellies. There's sometimes I'm looking around and I'm just like, wow, what a blessed life. Like we're so connected and they're still themselves.
Kareem Manuel [00:30:46]
And it was frightening because I had never seen anything like this. I remember somebody saying, well, how are they going to learn to respect you if you don't do this or that? And I was like, he's 5, why do I need his respect? What am I missing that I'm trying to force this being that's five years old to respect me? He doesn't even know respect. Like he'll respect me because of how I carry myself is what I'm banking on. And if I'm not, if not, that's more data. Not this way. That's what I was saying. I was saying it's like we need the data.
Kareem Manuel [00:31:19]
We have to try something new because this way isn't working. I could go on and on about parenting, it's my absolute favorite thing. But yes, everything changed and I feel like love took the driver's seat. Oh, as opposed to fear and trauma and drama, Just love. And yeah, I feel the best.
Sarah Tacy [00:31:47]
I ask you about parenting because I would recommend to anyone who's listening to check Kareem out on Instagram. I'm sure you probably have other platforms. That's the one I use.
Kareem Manuel [00:31:58]
No, not really.
Sarah Tacy [00:31:59]
No, you know.
Kareem Manuel [00:32:00]
Yeah, like that's so it's the one I understand the best.
Sarah Tacy [00:32:03]
Chief dot Kareem, is that correct? There are so many beautiful videos of you and your sons really going through a human experience of each other. I'm thinking of 1 even right now of when you were jumping on a rope swing into a river, the way that your boys were coaching you, right? Like, so it's like, yes, you, I mean, there's so many videos where you are giving them these experiences that they've never had before and like really showing that you really listen to what they care about and what they want and helping to create opportunities for them that they perhaps haven't had before that are really meaningful to them. Not like you want it for them.
Sarah Tacy [00:32:44]
It's like they want it for them. And you listened and responded. There was a call and response. And then there's this one of you jumping into the water. And I think your boys are like, you got this. Like they're cheering you on. And it's so great. Your kids are most likely responding to you the way that you responded to them.
Kareem Manuel [00:33:01]
100% I'm talking about word for word. And it was so beautiful that moment because I was really afraid and I had tired, you know, I thought in Jamaica when I went to visit, I jumped off the tight spring no problem. But this one was different for me in my mind, how the setup was. It just I wasn't sure my body could execute. And so I'm like, I actually don't have to do it.
Kareem Manuel [00:33:29]
And when I'm hearing them say back to me from this place of like embodiment of, you know, 1 is OK if I don't, but then 2 is like, you can do this. And how much fun and hope I can hear in their voices. And so now I'm talking to my own self. I hear their voice, but I'm speaking to my own selves and saying like, yes, you are totally within your rights to say like, no, I'm 38 years old. I don't need to do this, you know?
Kareem Manuel [00:34:00]
And there's no judgement if I don't. I feel. And bringing myself in this way has helped me take so many steps when it's like, yeah, I could stop right here, and that is a OK. But I'm hearing the wonder, the joy, the boyish energy, the childlike faith that I want to have calling to me. And I'm like, I have to go.
Kareem Manuel [00:34:23]
I have to do this even though I'm scared. And how much has that served me in my life over these last seven years? Was like, yeah, I am scared and I can quit right now and no one could say anything to me. I will be well within my rights. And then just a little boy in me is like, but it'll be so fun.
Kareem Manuel [00:34:44]
You can do it. And then to do it, Oh, man. And just a joy. We talked about it this morning. It was, you know, with my youngest, we just had a a beautiful experience yesterday and I could see Matthew was overwhelmed in the beginning and nervous, but he just met it and he just kept going through.
Kareem Manuel [00:35:01]
And at the end he was just in the flow state. And so we talked about what that feels like in Kundalini and all these things. And I just shared like, yeah, there are times like at this river where I'm afraid. And when I go anyway, 97% of the time I learn there wasn't even anything to be afraid of. That was all in here.
Kareem Manuel [00:35:25]
And I don't ever learn that until I step in it. I don't know it until I step in the fire and go. This is not a fire. It's like the monster under my bed. It's like once I finally go down there, it's like, that's not a monster. It's a sock. It's making. You know, I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful to have them because they provide so much space and opportunity for those lessons to come up. And as much as I feel a responsibility to share them with them is still feeding and watering me in tremendous ways.
Kareem Manuel [00:35:58]
So just growth and development and fearlessness and adventure and being at all with life and the life that they have and letting them have and honor their own lives, their own voice, their own choice about wherever they think their path is taking them. It's a it's an exquisite, just delicious journey for sure.
Sarah Tacy [00:36:19]
I'd love to highlight one more thing, which is you said that they can feel your love. And my husband and I worked with a guy and he called himself a developmentalist. We were kind of at this crossroads with one of our, you know, she's older now, but clearly like something some patterning and we wanted to do better. And my thinking in this moment there was like, I'm thinking of this, this idea of how my husband thought about respect. I'll, I'll give a really small example.
Sarah Tacy [00:36:53]
Like she should look adults in the eyes and say thank you and say goodbye. And that might be something that I might be like, yeah. But like he'd say actually when she feels safe, right? When she feels safe, it's not even to be a question. You don't have to say Sophia look them in the eye.
Sarah Tacy [00:37:14]
Sophia do this, but the safer you make her feel, the more natural it's going to be for her to want to make contact with adults, to want to look in their eyes. So that is actually a reflection of her safety. So just like you said, like, what is it in you that feels like, do you feel like you're going to be judged by your parents if she doesn't look them in the eyes? So is the like, are you using your child to feel worthy in front of your parents? You know, kind of looking And it's like, oh ****.
Sarah Tacy [00:37:43]
Another one is how say there's a, a parenting style where there is a lot of like you, you must do these things, you must behave these ways. And by the way, I love you so much. So they're hearing, I love you so much, but what they're feeling is and you must act this way in order to keep it. And so the words I love you like hearing the words I love you from somebody when there's a dissonance in how you feel can feel like a demand. So it can be like a demand on a child. If you're like, I love you, I love you and you want to get it back. You're like how parents can use their children to Co regulate them. I had a hard day. Can I have a hug? I love you so much.
Sarah Tacy [00:38:28]
But when you are showing your kids love and you show your kids respect and maybe give like if I were to make a mistake, like can I have a redo? I'm so sorry. I noticed I acted out. I was frustrated. I wasn't able to handle that. But then they start to just like want to come and they feel the love through your actions, through your attention. And now the phrase I love you is not a demand. It is in resonance and incoherence and it's feel confusing.
Sarah Tacy [00:39:03]
Mean sometimes it can feel really confusing for a kid and we think that we're saying something nice and why don't they get it or yeah. And I just, I really see that with your kids. And when you said that your kids feel your love, it reminded me of these scenarios where I could start to differentiate a little bit more in our own lives and our own parenting, where we were off and where we could get better and what it feels like when we align with it more.
Kareem Manuel [00:39:28]
And to me, this sounds like, you know, you're asking yourself great questions. Why do we want this? Why do we need this? You know, for, for in my culture, it's like, yeah, you say, yes, Sir, No, Sir, look him in the eyes, shake their hand, blah, blah. But I would see them like, you know, be nervous.
Kareem Manuel [00:39:46]
And it's, and I remember asking, it's like, do they have space to express nervousness, to express anxiety, to express discomfort? I don't want to talk to anybody, you know? And how much more different would they act if they felt safe enough? To express themselves in a Safeway. And so yes, I, I, I agree with everything you're saying. It's like the love has to be tangible when it's, it's manipulative. Another way. I love you, so you must. And if you do what you must, then I give the love.
Sarah Tacy [00:40:20]
Then I give you shelter, I give you food, and I tell you I love you and actually you need those to survive so.
Kareem Manuel [00:40:26]
That's just Maslow's hierarchy. That's the base level, base level living. And the children didn't ask to be here. So I when I teach people, I said so many people, at least in this country, use their children like pets that are obligated to love them and that look like them. So it's like all this ego sourcing.
Kareem Manuel [00:40:48]
And that's really what I hoped to drown. It's like, yeah, the ego's defeating my ego. You don't want to try hard in school. You don't have to try hard in school, but this is your life. And I can tell you from the data that I had that if you don't try hard, these are the patterns that you're making.
Kareem Manuel [00:41:05]
This is how it's showing up in your life. And if you do try hard, these are the potentials, the opportunities. Nothing is guaranteed, but I except for I can guarantee if you don't try, you end up with less than you deserve. For sure. That's how we're coming at it.
Kareem Manuel [00:41:21]
As opposed to you need straight A's and then I'll give you this and, and for years I watched them like kind of struggle. I don't like to read, I don't want to do this. And then it starts clicking because they feel supported. And that's, that's really what we want. We want love, connection, support.
Kareem Manuel [00:41:35]
We want to feel safe. And if we do, we normally will meet those that we love and what in like powerful ways and wonderful ways. And you, you're married now, like you, you're been in love. You know how you show up when you feel loved? It's not even a question how much further you'll go, how much more you'll give, how much deeper you'll receive.
Kareem Manuel [00:41:58]
It's almost like a reflex, a reaction to the love. And I think we can have that with our children. That's how I feel about it. I just had to let go of everything you just said. Trying to prove anything. Look like anything sourcing from them, right. Using them to regulate my own emotions. Yeah. They're not my pets. Then they have their own lives, their own path, their own purpose. And I am blessed to be able to steward it, to be able to see it and be a part of it if I choose to accept that call. And that's it. Otherwise, you know, kind of back off.
Sarah Tacy [00:42:34]
I feel silly. I'm about to use words specialize and I'm not sure maybe I could say I take great, great interest and spend a lot of time in the field of trauma Physiology and nervous system resourcing and support and so more I would say nervous system resourcing and support. And perhaps the first phrase came out because trauma Physiology is often present when we feel alone and without choice. And So what I heard you just describe in parenting is giving information, which again, in that world would be called like orientation. Like here's some orientation points, here's where you are, and here's some choice.
Sarh Tacy [00:43:18]
And the trauma Physiology is that there is no choice and that even though other people were around, we felt really alone in our situation and felt helpless and stuck. And so when I hear you say, well, my kids were nervous and they didn't want to look up. And then what would it look like if I gave them space to be nervous? Then it's like, oh, you get being nervous and seen in your nervousness. And I will still be here as a stable other while you're nervous.
Sarah Tacy [00:43:45]
And then in all these areas of life, I'm going to give you the information I have if you know, if you want it. And, and I also know parenting does need to like have some boundaries. And I'm hearing like these are your choices.
Kareem Manuel [00:44:00]
Yep.
Sarah Tacy [00:44:01]
If the opposite of trauma Physiology, I imagine it to be a form of liberation, and I think that's an incredible gift.
Kareem Manuel [00:44:09]
I love the language you're using. I love it. I love it very much. It's beautiful. 1 short example of, you know, using the school with the boundaries. I agree. It's like, hey, you're going to this school while you're in my care. This is the choice that I can make. You get to choose how you're going to be in that school. If you're going to engage or not engage, if you're going to if your grades start slipping, you were going to go to the tutoring.
Kareem Manuel [00:44:37]
That's the school. That's the choice that I get to make. You get to decide if you're going to fall asleep, if you're going to listen, if you're going to who you are and the environment is your choice. You have. They have great say over their environment, but not all to say.
Kareem Manuel [00:44:52]
They have great say over the what they eat, but not all to say. While I still have this role and they're at these ages. And I just think it's been a good dance in that way where it's like, yeah, because what I experienced and what I hadn't noticed was when we become adults, it's the first time we really have or a practice choice unless we're like betraying or disrespecting boundary that have been set for us when we're younger. And so it's like the first time you get into practice with choice around certain major ideas is when you finally get away from the home. And I said, what would it look like if you were loved and got to practice the choice in the home?
Kareem Manuel [00:45:29]
So your first time experiencing these things isn't when you're out and you're talking to other people who are also not experienced it, trying to give each other advice. And I've just seen that be the absolute worst concoction.
Sarh Tacy [00:45:43]
It's just like, I'm just thinking even if they broke the rules that they had, you know, and you said when they break away, I don't see that as choice. I see that as fight or flight response. I see that as a fight response, right. And so, yeah, actual choice where there's autonomy and then we still have that we scenario of like, and you're not alone and roll clarity. I'm the parent and I will have these safety structures where it is safe for you to make these choices.
Sarh Tacy [00:46:11]
It's just really beautiful. And again, for listeners, I think Instagram can feel many ways to a system or a body, but if one were to spend time there, it's nice to have accounts that are really inspiring and uplifting and show a better way that things can be. Because as you said, as you were doing this, you hadn't necessarily seen that this weight would work like what's going to happen? I'm just really trying my best to make a moment by moment. What is a better way?
Kareem Manuel [00:46:47]
And, and I say that to them, there are times where I'm like, guys, I do not know the answer. I'm not sure what you just did felt so wrong to me and I do not know an appropriate response because I want to choke you. And even that's been good to just acknowledge like I don't know that I'm going to make this choice because I think it's the best I have in this moment. We go to therapy together now. We just started counseling together as we deal with their mother and I separated 8 years ago, but now they're going to their teens.
Kareem Manuel [00:47:24]
There's just friction and things coming up. And you know, I said to the therapist because she was being very truthful and saying things that I had not yet said to them about just our relationship and what it what it feels like as a man on this side. And she's, you know, this African woman and she's just in a very loving, almost like motherly way, grandmotherly ways sharing the truth. And I said to her, I was like, I haven't said that yet to them. I wasn't sure what was healthy or not. And she looked me in my face and she said these are young men. They're young men just like you. And they need to know what's happening. They need the truth. And I really respected that.
Kareem Manuel [00:48:04]
And they seem so at peace and happy to be being told the truth, to being trusted with the truth and invited in. So I don't know what just made me think about that, but I do know I was very appreciative of that moment a few weeks ago. It's like, yeah, these are young, our children, our young people just like us. We're going to have questions and concerns just like us. And what did, what did I need growing up?
Kareem Manuel [00:48:31]
Did I need more yelling and misunderstandings and beatings and stepping over the boundaries? Or did I just need to save space to not know and to be able to ask questions and to laugh and feel a part of the tribe? And how much can I bring that to bear and stay within myself and not do more than I can do not definitely not use it to win their love somehow. But I've done all this for you, so now you have to do all these things. It's like they're separate. They're completely independent. That's what just came up for me. That's how I heard you share 2.
Sarah Tacy [00:49:06]
Places I want to go right now, some of it is the men's work that you do and the other like I see our time shoot diamond space. Thank you. And the other portion is just, I'll let you choose. Here we go. You get to choose.
Sarah Tacy [00:49:24]
One is would be around the men's work that you've experienced and being with other men. And I believe a lot of that has been through Sacred Sons and I don't know if it's also been in other avenues as well. And the other question would be around music. And I don't know if style would be the right word, but clothing line and music and how that is also an outlet. And so I'm just feeling myself equally interested. And I'm not sure if you have a direction or like a thing to say on each one that could fit here.
Kareem Manuel [00:50:00]
I'll try to merge them for a second time.
Sarah Tacy [00:50:03]
There we go.
Kareem Manuel [00:50:04]
I am walking under the hypothesis and what feels like to me a belief at this time that we are programmed and are programming and reprogramming ourselves everyday and that we can be conscious about it, which makes it different than a habit. Or we can be unconscious about whatever program we're a part of. And there are small programs and then there are massive ones that, you know, take years to play out, but you, you know, keep looking up. And so with the men's work that I've done and the music, the reason I'm involved in either one is because I, I believe culture, the establishing of culture, the engaging with culture is a very powerful tool to help reveal programs, to help establish and implement programs that can either be helpful or destructive. And since we're going to be together anyway, this is our planet anyway.
Kareem Manuel [00:51:10]
This is our life anyhow. I choose to love and be at peace with as many living beings and non living beings as I can. And so I'll be at Sacred Suns in September at the Coed when the first Coed went there, the hosting, and I'll be there as an artist. And what I found in doing both the work by the reason I make clothes, do music, go to these retreats is because I think having something that you can affirm and then repeat and then measure yourself by when you brought up my Instagram post, having the photos and the videos to be able to go back and say in 2017, then 1819 till now 2024, I'm £100 down. I'm off all my medications.
Kareem Manuel [00:51:53]
I'm a teen years younger. What that does to me for the next 10 years in affirming how capable I am to change my circumstance, to change my environment if I so choose, believe we can also do for our emotional bodies, our psychological bodies. And so music is the soundtrack to the movie of our lives. Clothing is one of many ways we can express ourselves. And then these retreats where we do the men's work is a place where men get to come and just really be themselves, sometimes even be offered for the first time in a long time, the space to even acknowledge you don't know who yourself is.
Kareem Manuel [00:52:38]
And if people are there experiencing that, what type of music it will help them on the journey. You know, when we're in ceremony, there are certain songs that can just help the prayer go deep when somebody's like trying to access pain, that thing kept hitting away for years and years and years and we start hitting the drum and it's just you feel it in your sacral, in your root. It just is a great assist if you want to use it to tap into that space. It's and so those are how those things marry together. And I could, I mean, I could go for hours about that.
[00:53:11]
I know I like to talk when I'm asked good questions, but on my prayer and all of these things, the way I see them interwoven is that we are and that I am a part of weaving and crafting A dynamic culture, a lifestyle of being not with rules and like you have to dress like this to be part of the lifestyle. It's wildly accepting of all peoples who are seeking love as the way of seeking togetherness and unity, understanding and peace. That's seeking the Wellness of we. That's really why I do it. It's been amazing to witness, to be around so many men.
Kareem Manuel [00:53:54]
I hear, I hear a lot of basking of men, but I spent so much time with men really trying to stand against some really evil practices And, and it's not a lot of information about how to do it well. So we're creating it now. And so I just give a lot of grace, a lot of gratitude, a lot of appreciation for the men that show up to do it, and then that they, you know, have some cool music to buy to as we process.
Sarah Tacy [00:54:23]
As you said that about the drum, I thought about I don't listen to the Emerald a lot, mostly I don't listen to the podcast a lot. Interestingly, what I have heard it's it's really a beautiful, beautiful podcast. And there was one called something like we, we won't psychologize the revolution, the revolution and will not be psychologized. And at one point he's like, there's just something that happens when you're in the third hour of a drum circle that can't be psychologized, right? And so there are these things that we do where we can talk and right now we're having a conversation and we can Orient with words. And there are these other things that we do alone or in community or in nature that have an effect that can't quite be planned. But it's an ancient wisdom that our ancestors have known for thousands of generations.
Kareem Manuel [00:55:18]
Absolutely
Sarah Tacy [00:55:19]
Don't know if they've largely been taken away, but that's not fully true. But in some of their forms it feels that way. And so I love, I love the integration of it all.
Kareem Manuel [00:55:32]
That's why we're here. For it's like I am. I am who I am. I was born where I was born or raised where I was raised, and there's this ancient way that calls to me in my blood and in my cells. Yeah, there's a way for me to be myself within that. And so I'm 100% all of those things.
Sarah Tacy [00:55:53]
I'm going to maybe almost end on this, this line that I changed it up a little bit from your intro in the podcast and it's being an alchemist of change within an existing infrastructure. And that one line right there really feels like it encapsulates you and your work in this world. I often end, not always, but I often end a podcast with what I call, depending on where listeners want to stand, I could say for the reticular activating system in our brain or the universe or something divine beyond. And it's a practice of just saying, may I or show me and if you have any more, anything you want to add to. So I'll, I'll, I'll start here.
Sarh Tacy [00:56:37]
And if you want to add or just not, that's great. Show me the ways that the universe, Divine Source, my inner knowing, can guide me step by step to be a part of change. Show me what it looks like, what it feels like to lead from love. Remind me of the ways that I know in my blood, in my soul, the parts that often get quieted. Please give them that breath in which they remember who they are.
Sarah Tacy [00:57:28]
Thank you for all the opportunities that came before this, the times that we might see that it's the path of not here, and for every moment in which we know here I am. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. It's been such a pleasure. If you're looking for added support, I'm offering a program that's totally free called 21 Days of Untapped Support. It's pretty awesome. It's very easy, it's very helpful. You can find it at sarahtacy.com. And if you love this episode, please subscribe. And like, apparently it's wildly useful. So we could just explore what happens when you Scroll down to the bottom subscribe rate, maybe say a thing or two. If you're not feeling it, don't do it. It's totally fine. I look forward to gathering with you again. Thank you so much.